Discussion:
[GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-01 00:17:01 UTC
Permalink
http://userdatamanifesto.org/ proposes 8 points "defining basic rights
for people to control their own data in the internet age"

I'd like to reach consensus on officially supporting this manifesto:

==
hk

1. Own the data
The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
person who created it.

2. Know where the data is stored
Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
laws apply.

3. Choose the storage location
Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
being locked in to a specific vendor.

4. Control access
Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
their own data to see or modify it.

5. Choose the conditions
If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
selects the sharing license and conditions.

6. Invulnerability of data
Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
any other reason.

7. Use it optimally
Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
for them.

8. Server software transparency
Server software should be free and open source software so that the
source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
specified.
Christian Grothoff
2013-01-01 00:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Hellekin,

My vision differs somewhat from yours, as I believe what you propose
cannot be strictly enforced on a technical level and thus results in
making promises to the user that cannot be kept. How about this:


1. Control Sharing
You will control the set of users to which the software will make your
data available to. Different information can be made accessible to
different audiences. This even includes the fact that you're using the
network in the first place.

2. Be Honest about Technical Limitations
Once your data has been made available to others, we will be honest in
the documentation and admit that the specified recipients can then
pretty much do with it as they please with your information. User
interfaces will not attempt to fool you with 'expiration' or similar
misleading options. Advisory options (requested expiration, requested
restrictions on circulation, requested licensing conditions) which rely
on the goodwill of other users will be strictly marked as such.

3. Enable Attribution
If applicable, the we will try to make it convenient to preserve
attributions (i.e. authorship) and licensing information, especially
when forwarding data beyond the initial target group. Still, we will not
claim that this will stop violations of the licensing terms or plagiarism.

4. Your Data Stays with You
Your data will be primarily stored on your system. Only the data you
explicitly choose to share with others will be made available to those
other individuals. Third parties may help with the transmission
process, but we will use the strongest cryptographic protections
available to ensure that those parties will learn as little as
practically possible about your data. However, depending on the
application, they may still learn something about the message (such as
an approximation of its size and the communicating parties). We will not
make any promises about your data remaining available once the primary
copy on your system(s) becomes unavailable.


I realize this is a totally different approach, but I personally would
neither want to promise something that software alone cannot ensure nor
rely on other participants to behave lawfully or ethically.

Happy hacking!

Christian


On 01/01/2013 01:17 AM, hellekin (GNU Consensus) wrote:
> http://userdatamanifesto.org/ proposes 8 points "defining basic rights
> for people to control their own data in the internet age"
>
> I'd like to reach consensus on officially supporting this manifesto:
>
> ==
> hk
>
> 1. Own the data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> 4. Control access
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
> their own data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Invulnerability of data
> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
> for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
> specified.
Richard Stallman
2013-01-01 17:24:55 UTC
Permalink
I think all of your points are valid ones that we should inform people
about.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Hugo Roy
2013-01-06 12:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Le mardi 01 janvier 2013 à 01:45 +0100, Christian Grothoff a écrit :
>
> I realize this is a totally different approach, but I personally would
> neither want to promise something that software alone cannot ensure
> nor rely on other participants to behave lawfully or ethically.

I think both approaches are complementary. Frank's manifesto also
included some technical requirements.

Although, if you choose not to rely "on other participants to behave
lawfully" you might as well leave in a cave. Or did I misunderstand your
statement? You want something that can "be strictly enforced on a
technical level" but these are still promises made to the user. So you
have to rely on the people implementing parts of the system for you to
behave ethically (by following their promise) and legally (if the
promise is a legally binding contract). You also have to trust them in
some way, unless you read and understand the whole source code yourself,
you always rely on other people to behave ethically.

Anyway, my point is that we should not make a complete distinction, they
go hand-in-hand and we could include your proposals with the
improvements to Frank's text.


--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
https://www.fsfe.org/support
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-07 18:39:14 UTC
Permalink
On 01/06/2013 09:51 AM, Hugo Roy wrote:
>
> I think both approaches are complementary. Frank's manifesto also
> included some technical requirements.
>
*** Yes, there's probably room for a text for end-users, and another
text for developers. Both are a distinct public with different
requirements. Ideally, the text for end-users would invoke the text for
developers: following Christian's advice, programmers would at least
show their interest in protecting the rights of the end-user.

> You want something that can "be strictly enforced on a
> technical level" but these are still promises made to the user.
>
*** That is the reason why it needs to be free software. Only
peer-review can ensure a program is following the guidelines presented
in a consensual text.

> You also have to trust them in
> some way, unless you read and understand the whole source code yourself,
> you always rely on other people to behave ethically.
>
*** Not only in code, but also in science! Moreover, ToS:DR has the same
issue: end-users trust the peer-review process to bring an honest
qualification of the various Terms of Services. As we're living in the
post-Web world, we also understand that the trust is not only granted to
an individual, but on the community of peer-reviewers.

I think we're discussing the User Data Manifesto not only because it has
flaws in its current form, but also because there is an interest in
having such a manifesto available to end-users. That is a constructive
discussion, as I see it.

==
hk
Hugo Roy
2013-01-08 21:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Le lundi 07 janvier 2013 à 15:39 -0300, hellekin (GNU Consensus) a
écrit :
> > You also have to trust them in
> > some way, unless you read and understand the whole source code
> yourself,
> > you always rely on other people to behave ethically.

> *** Not only in code, but also in science! Moreover, ToS:DR has the
> same issue: end-users trust the peer-review process to bring an honest
> qualification of the various Terms of Services. As we're living in the
> post-Web world, we also understand that the trust is not only granted
> to an individual, but on the community of peer-reviewers.

Yes. If you're interested in trust, science, and institution, you can be
delighted by Bruno Latour's new book which has the first chapter
available (in English) at

“Trusting Institutions Again?”
http://www.bruno-latour.fr/sites/default/files/downloads/AIME-intro-chapter1.pdf

Best,
--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
https://www.fsfe.org/support
Daniel Reusche
2013-01-12 23:06:14 UTC
Permalink
On 01/01/2013 01:45 AM, Christian Grothoff wrote:
> 3. Enable Attribution
> If applicable, the we will try to make it convenient to preserve
> attributions (i.e. authorship) and licensing information, especially
> when forwarding data beyond the initial target group. Still, we will not
> claim that this will stop violations of the licensing terms or plagiarism.

The smallest federate wiki that ward cunningham et.al. are working on
has a nice feature for automatic attribution tracking for reused text.

i.e.: you write something, i drag and drop it to somewhere else and
start further working on it. it will later still be clear who wrote
what, including the initial source.
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-01 05:04:40 UTC
Permalink
On 12/31/2012 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Hold your horses!
>
*** Christian, Richard, I really appreciate working with you both. That
is a real challenge sometimes to match your vision-logic, and I learn a
lot along the path. I'm really glad.

I invited Frank Karlitschek, the author of this manifesto, to join the
list. I hope he will do it and reflect on your comments. I will review
them after a good night of sleep.

Happy GNU year!

==
hk

P.S.: Frank, Christian Grothoff made other comments, available in the
GNU/consensus list archive.

> 1. Own the data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
>
> The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
> Meanwhile, "data" is too general.
>
> What if the data is program? This seems to say that the program
> should gave an owner -- and we are against that.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> "Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.
>
> 6. Invulnerability of data
> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.
>
> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
> for them.
>
> This is a demand for perfect convenience. I suspect it is impossible;
> more importantly, it is a distraction, since it is not an ethical issue.
> Mere convenience issues should not be elevated to the same status
> as ethical issues.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
> specified.
>
> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
> disagree with our ethical ideals.
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-04 16:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard and everybody,

first I would like to says that I'm honored that this topic is discussed here on the list. I'm involved in free software for 15 years and the FSF and GNU are always the biggest moral authorities in my opinion.

Here my feedback to you feedback:


>>
>> 1. Own the data
>> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
>> person who created it.
>>
>> The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
>> Meanwhile, "data" is too general.

I'm not a native speaker so sorry I I choose the wrong words. What words do you suggest?


>> What if the data is program? This seems to say that the program
>> should gave an owner -- and we are against that.

Sure. This documents is targeting every data that is not a program. I think freedom in programs are perfectly covered by the FSF principals and the GNU licenses.
This is about holiday pictures, microblogging messages, blog posts, personal documents, emails and so on.


>>
>> 2. Know where the data is stored
>> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
>> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
>> laws apply.
>>
>> 3. Choose the storage location
>> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
>> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
>> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>>
>> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
>> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.

Yes. It would be the perfect solution if every user would have a personal server. But in the midterm this is not realistic so people store their data on server that are owned and run by other people. And this is not necessary a problem if the principals of this document are respected. Data is encrypted, can be migrated, ...


>>
>> 5. Choose the conditions
>> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
>> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>>
>> "Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.
>>
>> 6. Invulnerability of data
>> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
>> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
>> any other reason.
>>
>> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.

Yes. You are right. This is impossible to achieve. The idea is that this is a principal where we should aim for but propbalby can't be reached. Do you know what I mean?


>>
>> 7. Use it optimally
>> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
>> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
>> for them.
>>
>> This is a demand for perfect convenience. I suspect it is impossible;
>> more importantly, it is a distraction, since it is not an ethical issue.
>> Mere convenience issues should not be elevated to the same status
>> as ethical issues.


Good point. I added this point because perfect protection can be reached if you put you data on a DVD and put it into a safe. The problem is that it can't be used in an effective way anymore. So i thought that it is important to say that the data should stay usable.
But you are right of course that this is not an ethical value comparable with the others points.



>>
>> 8. Server software transparency
>> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
>> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
>> specified.
>>
>> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
>> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
>> disagree with our ethical ideals.

I'm sorry. My mistake. I will change this to free software.


Do you like the general direction of this document?

It would be awesome to promote this together with the FSF or make it a FSF project if you are interested.
What do you think?


Frank




On 01.01.2013, at 06:04, hellekin (GNU Consensus) <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> On 12/31/2012 11:05 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
>> Hold your horses!
>>
> *** Christian, Richard, I really appreciate working with you both. That
> is a real challenge sometimes to match your vision-logic, and I learn a
> lot along the path. I'm really glad.
>
> I invited Frank Karlitschek, the author of this manifesto, to join the
> list. I hope he will do it and reflect on your comments. I will review
> them after a good night of sleep.
>
> Happy GNU year!
>
> ==
> hk
>
> P.S.: Frank, Christian Grothoff made other comments, available in the
> GNU/consensus list archive.
>
>> 1. Own the data
>> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
>> person who created it.
>>
>> The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
>> Meanwhile, "data" is too general.
>>
>> What if the data is program? This seems to say that the program
>> should gave an owner -- and we are against that.
>>
>> 2. Know where the data is stored
>> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
>> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
>> laws apply.
>>
>> 3. Choose the storage location
>> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
>> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
>> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>>
>> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
>> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.
>>
>> 5. Choose the conditions
>> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
>> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>>
>> "Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.
>>
>> 6. Invulnerability of data
>> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
>> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
>> any other reason.
>>
>> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.
>>
>> 7. Use it optimally
>> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
>> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
>> for them.
>>
>> This is a demand for perfect convenience. I suspect it is impossible;
>> more importantly, it is a distraction, since it is not an ethical issue.
>> Mere convenience issues should not be elevated to the same status
>> as ethical issues.
>>
>> 8. Server software transparency
>> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
>> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
>> specified.
>>
>> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
>> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
>> disagree with our ethical ideals.
>>
>
>
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-05 02:44:02 UTC
Permalink
On 01/04/2013 01:51 PM, Frank Karlitschek wrote:
>
> Here my feedback to you feedback:
>
*** Hello Frank, and welcome. Let's call it feedforth, so we don't turn
our backs to each other. Words remain the principal protocol for human
society, and we'd better enrich it, than not.

>>> 1. Own the data
>>> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
>>> person who created it.
>>>
>>> The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
>>> Meanwhile, "data" is too general.
>
*** The understanding of freedom is yet to be shared, and for some,
ownership and freedom are two distinct and antagonist concepts.

Ownership draws a separation between an actor, a possession, and the
other. By definition, ownership refers to a freedom-of-separation, that
is championed by the very same currents that your manifesto seems to be
willing to address. Reading that first point, although I can understand
the meaning you want to attach to it, I interpret it as a defensive
position: "It is mine, keep your hands off it!"

Data can be understood as the raw material in the social construction of
one's own memory, among other things ; but the data itself is nothing
without understanding, and sharing it, to refine what it holds as raw
material, ready for being carved into meaning, feeling, etc. The "data"
is but a point of origin, and each interaction enriches it and refines
its matter, so that it can evolve into information, and knowledge, art
and technology, craft and culture, good food and parties, etc.

Gregory Bateson would define infomation as "a difference that makes a
difference". In that acception, information is itself a subjective
concept. Considering how our perception work, it makes sense to not see
information as a physical property--or as identity, but an ongoing
process, the tool that shapes ourselves, as we carve data into something
meaningful to our kind.

Moreover, declaring that someone creates, and owns that creation, is to
ignore the infinite influence of others' previous creations on
ourselves, etc. it's all turtles, all the way down.

As I understand it, your first point is about asserting a right to
participate in the public space, and at the same time, protect our
legitimate need for intimacy and autonomy.

> This is about holiday pictures, microblogging messages, blog posts, personal documents, emails and so on.
>
*** No: this is about your capacity to proceed on the Internet, like you
would proceed in your living-room. The raw material that you're citing
has nothing to do with leisure, and everything to do with your personal
history. When you're an old person surrounded by great-grand-children,
you will see that the accumulation of all these little things you're
mentioning make your autobiography. That is your family album, except
now, instead of taking the dust in some old book, it's all over the
Internet, and it's not in your possession.

>
>>>
>>> 2. Know where the data is stored
>>> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
>>> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
>>> laws apply.
>>
>
*** That is a practical argument. But is it that practical? What you're
saying here, in the subtext, is that you don't want your intimacy to be
violated. Violence is the abuse of force. And to counter violence, you
need force. As far as we are now, moving fast toward a society of
control, you can bet your force is in your social network, and by that,
I mean the people you love, and who love you.

I agree that physical security of one's production is an asset to defend
your freedom, but look at Bittorrent, or the Tor network: who cares
where it is, as long as you can ensure it's available to yourself, and
the people you want to share it with?

Are you really convinced that knowing your social networking activity
sits in Utah or in India makes a difference to you? To people in war
zones, yes.

>>> 3. Choose the storage location
>>> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
>>> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
>>> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>>
>
*** I remember a comment by a well-known blogger, who was using a gratis
commercial service to store his sources, in the form of RSS feeds. Over
the years, he had accumulated thousands of sources, and was using that
convenient service to share it with others. One day, he decided to move
on, and could indeed "export his data". He could download an OPML file
and put it somewhere else. But he didn't do so. Instead, he contemplated
the vast amount of links he had built over the years, and concluded that
moving the data would not bring all that dense connectivity along with
it. So, what is the data here? Do you really think you can migrate the
"data" away from its surroundings?

> if every user would have a personal server.
>
*** That is realistic, and in a much shorter term than you envision.

> so people store their data on server that are owned and run by other people.
> And this is not necessary a problem if the principles of this document
are respected.
>
*** Yes! That is a question of ethics. And it certainly works for some
people who are lucky enough to know some hacker to take care of their
infrastructure. But that is not scalable, yet. The lack of resources on
one side, and of understanding of the importance of the topic on
another, make it a hard task to complete. We're all trying here to
unlock a bonus that is not just about data, and not just about
computing. Those are our means.

It's an omni-directional endeavor to bend the route of our civilization
in a way that will transform society. I consider the GNU/consensus
project an attractor of global dynamics, to quote Francis Heylighen, and
each Stakeholder an autonomous agent of change. In order for such a
complex system to evolve into a self-organizing system that will provoke
a global effect, we need to focus on ambitious goals. And my ambition is
that we can reach a global consensus of these goals by raising the bar
of the discussion beyond the obvious, and with such ambitious goals in
mind, work together, each in our own smaller social networks, to bring a
more cooperative civilization.

> Data is encrypted, can be migrated, ...
>
*** Please see above: *some* data can be migrated, and most of it
proceeds from another, intertwined, omni-directional, transdisciplinary,
metamorphic individuation. That means the choices made to build that
data, shape it. Don't get me wrong: I'm a daily user of strong
cryptography. But sometimes I think about the future archeologists who
will contemplate our encrypted lives like we contemplate Cro-Magnon.
Hopefully by then, cryptography will not be necessary anymore.

>
>>>
>>> 5. Choose the conditions
>>> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
>>> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>>>
>>> "Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.
>>>
>>> 6. Invulnerability of data
>>> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
>>> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
>>> any other reason.
>>>
>>> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.
>
> This is impossible to achieve. The idea is that this is a principal where we should aim for but probably can't be reached.
>
*** Soyons desinvoltes, demandons l'impossible. (Let's be nonchalant,
and demand the impossible!)
>
> Do you like the general direction of this document?
>
*** I appreciate your initiative, and I think you should be bolder, and
not assume a position of defense, because the billion of Facebook users
barely feel threatened. We want to build a system, that will render the
old one obsolete.

> It would be awesome to promote this together with the FSF or make it >
a FSF project if you are interested.
> What do you think?
>
*** I can't speak for the FSF nor for the GNU project, but you're very
welcome to the GNU/consensus.

Thank you for the inspiration, and for your attention,

==
hk
Richard Stallman
2013-01-06 02:18:40 UTC
Permalink
In the context of a social network, what a user can have and should
have is _control over access to the data she puts in_.

For people in a country with rule of law, usually the best control
is achieved by keeping that data in her own computer. If it is
in a computer belonging to Google or Facebook, and they tell you
that it is in the US, that does you very little good in terms
of controlling access to it.

*** I can't speak for the FSF nor for the GNU project, but you're very
welcome to the GNU/consensus.

That statement is not clear. What does it mean?
Are you talking about that person, or his manifesto?

GNU consensus cannot support that manifesto in its current form,
because it conflicts with ideas of the GNU Project.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Hugo Roy
2013-01-06 12:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone,

Le samedi 05 janvier 2013 à 21:18 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> That statement is not clear. What does it mean?
> Are you talking about that person, or his manifesto?
>
> GNU consensus cannot support that manifesto in its current form,
> because it conflicts with ideas of the GNU Project.

To me, it is pretty clear that we welcome Frank in the discussion.
Frank's initiative does not conflict with ideas of the GNU project, it
is about laying down a set of rights related to users of social
networks/"cloud" services. I do not see a conflict in that goal with the
GNU project that aims at liberating computer users, quite the contrary.

Now, I also share your concern with some of the words. This is why I did
not sign the manifesto as an individual either. I do not believe for
instance that anything created by a person "belongs" to that person.
Rather, it depends very much on your definitions of "belonging" and
"owning".

I guess the confusion comes from the philosophy that "people own
themselves" which is actually another way of saying that a person is a
free self. If you're free, you can think for yourself and do things with
your body, so you "own" your body and you "own" things you make with
your hands. But I do think that the formulation is too problematic,
especially because "own" often goes hand in hand with property. And if
we talk about ideas, then it is nonsense, even if that "idea" is
formulated in data.

I think the crucial point should not be about "owning" but really about
privacy/publicity.

The act of publishing something is very important. People should not
publish things without thinking through what that means. For instance,
we are responsible for things we say (legally responsible, with libel
law; or even socially responsible, with our reputation). But worse,
people should not be forced into publishing things. I see the subsequent
changes of Facebook's privacy policy and designs, with their
opt-in/opt-out changes, as a tendency towards forcing people to share
"stuff". This is wrong. Of course, that problem goes away if people have
their own server and decide for themselves (then we only need to take
care of the software and interface designs).

But until that architecture is there and working for everybody, I
definitely see a need for initiatives such as this manifesto: to help
bring people to websites which adhere to safeguarding these rights. That
can also be legally enforced in their Terms of service; so that it is
not only a promise but also a legal contract.

So I definitely think we should improve this manifesto and come up with
a better definition of the basic rights that every user should have on
these websites, and also a set of practical requirements that help
safeguarding these rights.
--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
https://www.fsfe.org/support
Richard Stallman
2013-01-07 02:19:28 UTC
Permalink
To me, it is pretty clear that we welcome Frank in the discussion.

That is what it says literally, but I could not tell if it had some
other meaning about the main topic (the manifesto).

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Richard Stallman
2013-01-07 02:19:29 UTC
Permalink
If you're free, you can think for yourself and do things with
your body, so you "own" your body and you "own" things you make with
your hands.

To say you "own" your body seems to imply you should be able to sell it.

I think the crucial point should not be about "owning" but really about
privacy

I agree.

/publicity.

In English, publicity and privacy are not antonyms. Publicity is an
activity (actively informing the public about something), whereas
privacy is a state of affairs. If someone is spying on you, you lose
privacy, but that does not mean you are engaged in publicity.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Hugo Roy
2013-01-07 06:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Le dimanche 06 janvier 2013 à 21:19 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> If you're free, you can think for yourself and do things with
> your body, so you "own" your body and you "own" things you make with
> your hands.
>
> To say you "own" your body seems to imply you should be able to sell it.

Yes, it _seems_ to, if you think of owning as property. But owning can
have other meanings. For instance, I think it could be valid to use the
expression "their own data" when we speak of users' data. It does not
necessarily mean we imply people have some kind of property over that
data but that is possible, for instance if the data is totally meant to
be private, I believe I have some property right on it. This is already
the case on my own laptop because the laptop is my property, but I think
it should also be the case when my private data is somewhere else.

> I think the crucial point should not be about "owning" but really about
> privacy
>
> I agree.
>
> /publicity.
>
> In English, publicity and privacy are not antonyms.

I did not say that being a public person means you cannot have privacy
any more, but when you publish something, it sure cannot be considered
private any more. So they are antonyms in some way. Depending on things
you publish, you change the "state of affairs" of your privacy.

If you think the whole point is only about "privacy" then I do not
understand what is the object that we are trying to reach consensus on.
I thought, reading Hellekin's manifesto, that we are trying to help free
software projects reach consensus to support social networks.

Social networks imply some publicity. If you think social networking is
only about what's totally private between close friends, you're living
before the Web.

So we have to address privacy /and/ publicity. (I believe there is a
continuum between them, not that things are totally binary.)

--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
https://www.fsfe.org/support
Richard Stallman
2013-01-08 02:11:56 UTC
Permalink
> In English, publicity and privacy are not antonyms.

I did not say that being a public person means you cannot have privacy
any more, but when you publish something, it sure cannot be considered
private any more. So they are antonyms in some way.

That is true -- but "publication" is not the same thing as "publicity".
Publicity means actively spreading the word about something.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Richard Stallman
2013-01-08 02:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it _seems_ to, if you think of owning as property. But owning can
have other meanings. For instance, I think it could be valid to use the
expression "their own data" when we speak of users' data. It does not
necessarily mean we imply people have some kind of property over that
data but that is possible, for instance if the data is totally meant to
be private, I believe I have some property right on it.

We _could_ do this, but we would have to work at it, and the effect
would be incomplete. It is better to use another term such as
"control", which avoids the problem entirely.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-08 11:17:12 UTC
Permalink
On 07.01.2013, at 07:05, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Le dimanche 06 janvier 2013 à 21:19 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
>> If you're free, you can think for yourself and do things with
>> your body, so you "own" your body and you "own" things you make with
>> your hands.
>>
>> To say you "own" your body seems to imply you should be able to sell it.
>
> Yes, it _seems_ to, if you think of owning as property. But owning can
> have other meanings. For instance, I think it could be valid to use the
> expression "their own data" when we speak of users' data. It does not
> necessarily mean we imply people have some kind of property over that
> data but that is possible, for instance if the data is totally meant to
> be private, I believe I have some property right on it. This is already
> the case on my own laptop because the laptop is my property, but I think
> it should also be the case when my private data is somewhere else.

This was my original idea that the stuff that I write on my laptop are my own stuff.
Than later I perhaps do the conscious decision to publish and release some of it
under free licenses on the internet. But there are definitely things like letters
to my girlfriend that I don't want to publish under a free license because they are private.

But let's switch to "private" instead of "owning" if this are better words.


>> I think the crucial point should not be about "owning" but really about
>> privacy
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> /publicity.
>>
>> In English, publicity and privacy are not antonyms.
>
> I did not say that being a public person means you cannot have privacy
> any more, but when you publish something, it sure cannot be considered
> private any more. So they are antonyms in some way. Depending on things
> you publish, you change the "state of affairs" of your privacy.
>
> If you think the whole point is only about "privacy" then I do not
> understand what is the object that we are trying to reach consensus on.
> I thought, reading Hellekin's manifesto, that we are trying to help free
> software projects reach consensus to support social networks.
>
> Social networks imply some publicity. If you think social networking is
> only about what's totally private between close friends, you're living
> before the Web.
>
> So we have to address privacy /and/ publicity. (I believe there is a
> continuum between them, not that things are totally binary.)
>
> --
> Hugo Roy
> French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
> Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
> https://www.fsfe.org/support
>
Richard Stallman
2013-01-08 20:37:53 UTC
Permalink
But let's switch to "private" instead of "owning" if this are better words.

I suggest using "control": users should have control of the data they
put into the system. "Control" is more general than "private".

Making data private is one way you can _use_ your control.
However, you can also use your control to allow some people
to have access to the data.

> Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own computing_
> then it isn't SaaS.

I read you document and I see what you mean.
Should we add a paragraph that SaaS is not recommended?

I suggest that we state the two problems that use of network services
can cause:

* Losing control of your data.

* Losing control of how your computing is done (SaaS).

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-13 11:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

thanks again for your comments. This all makes a lot of sense to me.

Perhaps it would be good to start to work on version 2 of the user data manifesto together.

What would be the best way to do that? I could setup a git repository somewhere. Does this work for everybody?


Frank



On 08.01.2013, at 21:37, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> But let's switch to "private" instead of "owning" if this are better words.
>
> I suggest using "control": users should have control of the data they
> put into the system. "Control" is more general than "private".
>
> Making data private is one way you can _use_ your control.
> However, you can also use your control to allow some people
> to have access to the data.
>
>> Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own computing_
>> then it isn't SaaS.
>
> I read you document and I see what you mean.
> Should we add a paragraph that SaaS is not recommended?
>
> I suggest that we state the two problems that use of network services
> can cause:
>
> * Losing control of your data.
>
> * Losing control of how your computing is done (SaaS).
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
Richard Stallman
2013-01-13 22:42:27 UTC
Permalink
I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Rich Hilliard
2013-01-15 15:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?

________________________________________
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
To: Frank Karlitschek
Cc: ***@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto

I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-15 15:56:55 UTC
Permalink
O.K.

Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist :-)

I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.

I will send something probably tomorrow.

I hope thats a good approach.


Frank

On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
>
> ________________________________________
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> To: Frank Karlitschek
> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>
> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
>
Rich Hilliard
2013-01-15 16:03:42 UTC
Permalink
if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.

________________________________________
From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
To: Rich Hilliard
Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto

O.K.

Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist :-)

I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.

I will send something probably tomorrow.

I hope thats a good approach.


Frank

On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
>
> ________________________________________
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> To: Frank Karlitschek
> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>
> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-21 12:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I created a draft 1 based on the feedback.
So What do you think?


Frank


--
User data manifesto V2 draft 1

Changeslog:

- Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server for the personal data.
- Removed "open source" so that only "free software" is in point 8.
- Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with "Protect the data from loss"
- Replaced "own data" with "personal data"

----------------
1. Control the personal data
The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person who created it.

2. Know where the data is stored
Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.

3. Choose the storage location
Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a different provider, server or their own machine at any time without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have the personal server for the personal data in the long term.

4. Control access
Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to their personal data to see or modify it.

5. Choose the conditions
If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user selects the sharing license and conditions.

6. Protect the data from loss
Everybody should be able to protect their personal data against surveillance and to federate their personal data for backups to prevent data loss or for any other reason.

7. Use it optimally
Everybody should be able to access and use their personal data at all times with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way for them.

8. Server software transparency
Server software should be free software so that the source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as specified.


--







On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:

> if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
> To: Rich Hilliard
> Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>
> O.K.
>
> Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist :-)
>
> I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.
>
> I will send something probably tomorrow.
>
> I hope thats a good approach.
>
>
> Frank
>
> On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
>> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
>> To: Frank Karlitschek
>> Cc: ***@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>>
>> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
>>
>> --
>> Dr Richard Stallman
>> President, Free Software Foundation
>> 51 Franklin St
>> Boston MA 02110
>> USA
>> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
>> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
>> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>>
>>
>
Melvin Carvalho
2013-01-21 12:58:41 UTC
Permalink
On 21 January 2013 13:43, Frank Karlitschek <
***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I created a
> draft 1 based on the feedback.
> So What do you think?
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> --
> User data manifesto V2 draft 1
>
> Changeslog:
>
> - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server for the
> personal data.
> - Removed "open source" so that only "free software" is in point 8.
> - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with "Protect the data from loss"
> - Replaced "own data" with "personal data"
>
> ----------------
> 1. Control the personal data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person
> who created it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically
> stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without being
> locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have the personal
> server for the personal data in the long term.
>

It strikes me that this implies that all your data will be stored on one
provider. In practice I may wish to store my social chit chat on one
server, my photos on another and my financial transactions on another.
Would it be part of the manifesto to allow the user this level of
granularity?


>
> 4. Control access
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
> their personal data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user selects the
> sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Protect the data from loss
> Everybody should be able to protect their personal data against
> surveillance and to federate their personal data for backups to prevent
> data loss or for any other reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their personal data at all
> times with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest
> way for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free software so that the source code of the
> software can be inspected to confirm that it works as specified.
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
> > if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
> > To: Rich Hilliard
> > Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> >
> > O.K.
> >
> > Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist
> :-)
> >
> > I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in
> and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have
> something that works for everybody.
> >
> > I will send something probably tomorrow.
> >
> > I hope thats a good approach.
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> >> To: Frank Karlitschek
> >> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> >>
> >> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dr Richard Stallman
> >> President, Free Software Foundation
> >> 51 Franklin St
> >> Boston MA 02110
> >> USA
> >> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> >> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> >> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-21 13:01:51 UTC
Permalink
On 21.01.2013, at 13:58, Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 21 January 2013 13:43, Frank Karlitschek <***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I created a draft 1 based on the feedback.
> So What do you think?
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> --
> User data manifesto V2 draft 1
>
> Changeslog:
>
> - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server for the personal data.
> - Removed "open source" so that only "free software" is in point 8.
> - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with "Protect the data from loss"
> - Replaced "own data" with "personal data"
>
> ----------------
> 1. Control the personal data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person who created it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a different provider, server or their own machine at any time without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have the personal server for the personal data in the long term.
>
> It strikes me that this implies that all your data will be stored on one provider. In practice I may wish to store my social chit chat on one server, my photos on another and my financial transactions on another. Would it be part of the manifesto to allow the user this level of granularity?

Hmm. It wasn't the idea to imply that all the data has to be on one place. We should change the words if you think that this is the meaning of the sentences.




>
>
> 4. Control access
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to their personal data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Protect the data from loss
> Everybody should be able to protect their personal data against surveillance and to federate their personal data for backups to prevent data loss or for any other reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their personal data at all times with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free software so that the source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as specified.
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
> > if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
> > To: Rich Hilliard
> > Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> >
> > O.K.
> >
> > Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist :-)
> >
> > I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.
> >
> > I will send something probably tomorrow.
> >
> > I hope thats a good approach.
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> >> To: Frank Karlitschek
> >> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> >>
> >> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dr Richard Stallman
> >> President, Free Software Foundation
> >> 51 Franklin St
> >> Boston MA 02110
> >> USA
> >> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> >> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> >> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
Melvin Carvalho
2013-01-21 13:07:49 UTC
Permalink
On 21 January 2013 14:01, Frank Karlitschek <
***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:

>
> On 21.01.2013, at 13:58, Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 21 January 2013 13:43, Frank Karlitschek <
> ***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I created a
> draft 1 based on the feedback.
> > So What do you think?
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> >
> > --
> > User data manifesto V2 draft 1
> >
> > Changeslog:
> >
> > - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server for
> the personal data.
> > - Removed "open source" so that only "free software" is in point 8.
> > - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with "Protect the data from loss"
> > - Replaced "own data" with "personal data"
> >
> > ----------------
> > 1. Control the personal data
> > The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
> >
> > 2. Know where the data is stored
> > Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
> >
> > 3. Choose the storage location
> > Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without being
> locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have the personal
> server for the personal data in the long term.
> >
> > It strikes me that this implies that all your data will be stored on one
> provider. In practice I may wish to store my social chit chat on one
> server, my photos on another and my financial transactions on another.
> Would it be part of the manifesto to allow the user this level of
> granularity?
>
> Hmm. It wasn't the idea to imply that all the data has to be on one place.
> We should change the words if you think that this is the meaning of the
> sentences.
>

Oh good!

Everybody should always be able to migrate personal data to a different
provider, server, or their own machine, at any time without being locked in
to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have a personal server for
personal data in the long term.

^^ couple of minor changes -- see what you think


>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > 4. Control access
> > Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
> their personal data to see or modify it.
> >
> > 5. Choose the conditions
> > If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user selects
> the sharing license and conditions.
> >
> > 6. Protect the data from loss
> > Everybody should be able to protect their personal data against
> surveillance and to federate their personal data for backups to prevent
> data loss or for any other reason.
> >
> > 7. Use it optimally
> > Everybody should be able to access and use their personal data at all
> times with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest
> way for them.
> >
> > 8. Server software transparency
> > Server software should be free software so that the source code of the
> software can be inspected to confirm that it works as specified.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > > if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
> > > To: Rich Hilliard
> > > Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> > >
> > > O.K.
> > >
> > > Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this
> mailinglist :-)
> > >
> > > I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements
> in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we
> have something that works for everybody.
> > >
> > > I will send something probably tomorrow.
> > >
> > > I hope thats a good approach.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> > >> To: Frank Karlitschek
> > >> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> > >>
> > >> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dr Richard Stallman
> > >> President, Free Software Foundation
> > >> 51 Franklin St
> > >> Boston MA 02110
> > >> USA
> > >> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> > >> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> > >> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Richard Stallman
2013-01-21 20:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Everybody should always be able to migrate personal data to a different
provider, server, or their own machine,

Agreement failure: "everybody" is singular, but "their" refers to plural.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-23 14:37:21 UTC
Permalink
On 01/21/2013 05:01 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Everybody should always be able to migrate personal data to a different
> provider, server, or their own machine,
>
> Agreement failure: "everybody" is singular, but "their" refers to plural.
>
*** Is it a legal constraint to use singular here? I also tend to use
'their' as a genderless singular.

==
hk
Frank Karlitschek
2013-02-01 09:07:09 UTC
Permalink
On 21.01.2013, at 21:01, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> Everybody should always be able to migrate personal data to a different
> provider, server, or their own machine,
>
> Agreement failure: "everybody" is singular, but "their" refers to plural.

Great. Thanks.
Sorry. I'm not a native speaker.

Frank


>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-02-01 09:07:14 UTC
Permalink
On 21.01.2013, at 14:07, Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 21 January 2013 14:01, Frank Karlitschek <***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:
>
> On 21.01.2013, at 13:58, Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 21 January 2013 13:43, Frank Karlitschek <***@userdatamanifesto.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I created a draft 1 based on the feedback.
> > So What do you think?
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> >
> > --
> > User data manifesto V2 draft 1
> >
> > Changeslog:
> >
> > - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server for the personal data.
> > - Removed "open source" so that only "free software" is in point 8.
> > - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with "Protect the data from loss"
> > - Replaced "own data" with "personal data"
> >
> > ----------------
> > 1. Control the personal data
> > The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person who created it.
> >
> > 2. Know where the data is stored
> > Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.
> >
> > 3. Choose the storage location
> > Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a different provider, server or their own machine at any time without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have the personal server for the personal data in the long term.
> >
> > It strikes me that this implies that all your data will be stored on one provider. In practice I may wish to store my social chit chat on one server, my photos on another and my financial transactions on another. Would it be part of the manifesto to allow the user this level of granularity?
>
> Hmm. It wasn't the idea to imply that all the data has to be on one place. We should change the words if you think that this is the meaning of the sentences.
>
> Oh good!
>
> Everybody should always be able to migrate personal data to a different provider, server, or their own machine, at any time without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to have a personal server for personal data in the long term.
>

Yes. I agree.

> ^^ couple of minor changes -- see what you think

What have you changed? Sorry can't find it at the moment.


>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > 4. Control access
> > Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to their personal data to see or modify it.
> >
> > 5. Choose the conditions
> > If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user selects the sharing license and conditions.
> >
> > 6. Protect the data from loss
> > Everybody should be able to protect their personal data against surveillance and to federate their personal data for backups to prevent data loss or for any other reason.
> >
> > 7. Use it optimally
> > Everybody should be able to access and use their personal data at all times with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way for them.
> >
> > 8. Server software transparency
> > Server software should be free software so that the source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as specified.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > > if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: Frank Karlitschek [***@userdatamanifesto.org]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:56 AM
> > > To: Rich Hilliard
> > > Cc: ***@gnu.org; ***@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> > >
> > > O.K.
> > >
> > > Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this mailinglist :-)
> > >
> > > I will take the current text and merge all the discussed improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.
> > >
> > > I will send something probably tomorrow.
> > >
> > > I hope thats a good approach.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:42 PM
> > >> To: Frank Karlitschek
> > >> Cc: ***@gnu.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
> > >>
> > >> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dr Richard Stallman
> > >> President, Free Software Foundation
> > >> 51 Franklin St
> > >> Boston MA 02110
> > >> USA
> > >> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> > >> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> > >> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Michael Rogers
2013-01-21 13:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Frank,

I agree with the spirit of the manifesto but I have a couple of
reservations.

First, the idea that people own the data they create is problematic.
The manifesto describes rights belonging to the creator of personal
data, which must be respected by those who store and process the data.
In contrast, European data protection law describes rights belonging
to the *subject* of the data, which must be respected by those who
store and process it. I hope those two sets of rights can be
reconciled, since it seems to me that both the creator and the subject
have an interest in how the data's used; but I'm not sure ownership is
the best approach to reconciling such conflicting interests, since it
tends to produce binary outcomes (either you own something or you don't).

Second, having the source code to server software doesn't enable you
to confirm that it works as specified; it's not possible to know
whether the binary running on the server corresponds to the source
code you've downloaded. I still think we should insist on free
software, but we should recognise that it only protects us if the
server operator is acting in good faith.

Cheers,
Michael

On 21/01/13 12:43, Frank Karlitschek wrote:
> Hi,
>
> let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I
> created a draft 1 based on the feedback. So What do you think?
>
>
> Frank
>
>
> -- User data manifesto V2 draft 1
>
> Changeslog:
>
> - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server
> for the personal data. - Removed "open source" so that only "free
> software" is in point 8. - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with
> "Protect the data from loss" - Replaced "own data" with "personal
> data"
>
> ---------------- 1. Control the personal data The data that someone
> directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person who created
> it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored Everybody should be able to know:
> where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which
> server, in what country, and what laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location Everybody should always be able to
> migrate their personal data to a different provider, server or
> their own machine at any time without being locked in to a specific
> vendor. It is recommended to have the personal server for the
> personal data in the long term.
>
> 4. Control access Everybody should be able to know, choose and
> control who has access to their personal data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions If someone chooses to share their personal
> data, then the user selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Protect the data from loss Everybody should be able to protect
> their personal data against surveillance and to federate their
> personal data for backups to prevent data loss or for any other
> reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally Everybody should be able to access and use
> their personal data at all times with any device they choose and in
> the most convenient and easiest way for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency Server software should be free
> software so that the source code of the software can be inspected
> to confirm that it works as specified.
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>
>> if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
>>
>> ________________________________________ From: Frank Karlitschek
>> [***@userdatamanifesto.org] Sent: Tuesday, January
>> 15, 2013 10:56 AM To: Rich Hilliard Cc: ***@gnu.org;
>> ***@gnu.org Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User
>> Data Manifesto
>>
>> O.K.
>>
>> Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this
>> mailinglist :-)
>>
>> I will take the current text and merge all the discussed
>> improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we
>> can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.
>>
>> I will send something probably tomorrow.
>>
>> I hope thats a good approach.
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
>>>
>>> ________________________________________ Sent: Sunday, January
>>> 13, 2013 5:42 PM To: Frank Karlitschek Cc: ***@gnu.org
>>> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>>>
>>> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
>>>
>>> -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51
>>> Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype:
>>> No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or
>>> an ordinary phone call
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-02-01 09:07:12 UTC
Permalink
On 21.01.2013, at 14:17, Michael Rogers <***@briarproject.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> I agree with the spirit of the manifesto but I have a couple of
> reservations.
>
> First, the idea that people own the data they create is problematic.
> The manifesto describes rights belonging to the creator of personal
> data, which must be respected by those who store and process the data.
> In contrast, European data protection law describes rights belonging
> to the *subject* of the data, which must be respected by those who
> store and process it. I hope those two sets of rights can be
> reconciled, since it seems to me that both the creator and the subject
> have an interest in how the data's used; but I'm not sure ownership is
> the best approach to reconciling such conflicting interests, since it
> tends to produce binary outcomes (either you own something or you don't).

I'm not an expert in that.
Do you have a suggestion to to rephrase that?



> Second, having the source code to server software doesn't enable you
> to confirm that it works as specified; it's not possible to know
> whether the binary running on the server corresponds to the source
> code you've downloaded. I still think we should insist on free
> software, but we should recognise that it only protects us if the
> server operator is acting in good faith.

I agree. The idea is to describe here what the right of the users are. How to do this in reality might be tricky but this doesn't change the principals


Cheers
Frank

>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
> On 21/01/13 12:43, Frank Karlitschek wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> let's try to create a version 2 of the manifesto together. I
>> created a draft 1 based on the feedback. So What do you think?
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> -- User data manifesto V2 draft 1
>>
>> Changeslog:
>>
>> - Add a remark to 3. that it is recommended to have an own server
>> for the personal data. - Removed "open source" so that only "free
>> software" is in point 8. - Replaced "Invulnerability of data" with
>> "Protect the data from loss" - Replaced "own data" with "personal
>> data"
>>
>> ---------------- 1. Control the personal data The data that someone
>> directly or indirectly creates belongs to the person who created
>> it.
>>
>> 2. Know where the data is stored Everybody should be able to know:
>> where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which
>> server, in what country, and what laws apply.
>>
>> 3. Choose the storage location Everybody should always be able to
>> migrate their personal data to a different provider, server or
>> their own machine at any time without being locked in to a specific
>> vendor. It is recommended to have the personal server for the
>> personal data in the long term.
>>
>> 4. Control access Everybody should be able to know, choose and
>> control who has access to their personal data to see or modify it.
>>
>> 5. Choose the conditions If someone chooses to share their personal
>> data, then the user selects the sharing license and conditions.
>>
>> 6. Protect the data from loss Everybody should be able to protect
>> their personal data against surveillance and to federate their
>> personal data for backups to prevent data loss or for any other
>> reason.
>>
>> 7. Use it optimally Everybody should be able to access and use
>> their personal data at all times with any device they choose and in
>> the most convenient and easiest way for them.
>>
>> 8. Server software transparency Server software should be free
>> software so that the source code of the software can be inspected
>> to confirm that it works as specified.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15.01.2013, at 17:03, Rich Hilliard <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>> if it allows rms to participate, I'm in favor.
>>>
>>> ________________________________________ From: Frank Karlitschek
>>> [***@userdatamanifesto.org] Sent: Tuesday, January
>>> 15, 2013 10:56 AM To: Rich Hilliard Cc: ***@gnu.org;
>>> ***@gnu.org Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User
>>> Data Manifesto
>>>
>>> O.K.
>>>
>>> Let's try to do it by email. I hope it's O.K. if we use this
>>> mailinglist :-)
>>>
>>> I will take the current text and merge all the discussed
>>> improvements in and send it to the list as first draft. Then we
>>> can iterate until we have something that works for everybody.
>>>
>>> I will send something probably tomorrow.
>>>
>>> I hope thats a good approach.
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> On 15.01.2013, at 16:34, "Rich Hilliard" <***@MIT.EDU> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Email is fine with me; who has the current draft version?
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________ Sent: Sunday, January
>>>> 13, 2013 5:42 PM To: Frank Karlitschek Cc: ***@gnu.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [GNU/consensus] [RFC][SH] User Data Manifesto
>>>>
>>>> I'd rather participate the way I have done thus far: by email.
>>>>
>>>> -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51
>>>> Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype:
>>>> No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or
>>>> an ordinary phone call
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Michael Rogers
2013-02-01 12:26:50 UTC
Permalink
On 01/02/13 09:07, Frank Karlitschek wrote:
>> In contrast, European data protection law describes rights
>> belonging to the *subject* of the data, which must be respected
>> by those who store and process it. I hope those two sets of
>> rights can be reconciled, since it seems to me that both the
>> creator and the subject have an interest in how the data's used;
>> but I'm not sure ownership is the best approach to reconciling
>> such conflicting interests, since it tends to produce binary
>> outcomes (either you own something or you don't).
>
> I'm not an expert in that. Do you have a suggestion to to rephrase
> that?

I'm not an expert either, so please don't give too much weight to what
I say. :-) However, if you agree that the manifesto should address the
rights of the data subject as well as the data creator, some deep
changes might be required.

For the sake of argument, let me suggest a definition based on point 1
of the manifesto: "Personal data is any data that is directly or
indirectly created by a person (the data creator), or that represents
or refers to a person (the data subject), or both."

If you apply that definition to the other points in the manifesto,
some conflicts arise. For example, the data creator and the data
subject may disagree about where the data should be stored, or who
should have access to it.

>> Second, having the source code to server software doesn't enable
>> you to confirm that it works as specified; it's not possible to
>> know whether the binary running on the server corresponds to the
>> source code you've downloaded. I still think we should insist on
>> free software, but we should recognise that it only protects us
>> if the server operator is acting in good faith.
>
> I agree. The idea is to describe here what the right of the users
> are. How to do this in reality might be tricky but this doesn't
> change the principals

Good point!

Cheers,
Michael
flawer
2013-02-01 13:25:19 UTC
Permalink
hi(s)


> user

uploader


> defining basic rights for people to control their own data in the
> internet age

rights for controlling personal data


> 1. own the data

a)control your data,

b)personal data,



> 1...

personal data is any data created by a person

> indirectly

? (ah, ideas are or can be sometimes or always forks. ok, nice :)

> 2.

know the container, know about the storage, transparent storage


> what country, and what laws apply.

what laws apply


> 3. server or their own machine at any time without being locked in to
> a specific vendor.

server


> Everybody

Data creators


> their own data

the personl data, (if 1. b))

their personal data ("their" uhmm :)


> selects the sharing license and conditions.

choose the sharing terms (sharing as in freedomdefined.org? as in
sharewiki.org ?, as in merriam? nevermind..)

choose the access terms


> 6.

shouldgo into 3


> to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.

be able to get a copy of the personal data

a) be able to federate personal data, at cost on request

b) the most federatable data, the better

or i can ask "manifesto supporter platforms" for implemnting any
federation standard or tell they are gaming it?


> 7, any device

the most devices can read the data, the better. open/free standards
mention?



> Services, projects, software

platforms,

applications

implementations

concretors

...

lolz, bye(s)
flawer
2013-02-06 16:52:19 UTC
Permalink
hi(s)

i just made a 'fork': for playing sake! enjoy :P


http://sharewiki.org/en/Data_control_manifesto



Defining rights for data being controlled by uploaders.

1. Personal data
Personal data is data uploaded by a person.

2. Data storage
Every uploader should be able to know: where personal data is
physically stored, how long, on which server, and what laws apply.
2.1. Data storage location election
Every uploader should always be able to migrate personal data to a
different server at any time.

3. Data access
Every uploader should be able to access and use personal data; choose
and control who has access to see, modify, eliminate it.

3.1. Data interpretation
Personal data should be uploaded in data open standards. Interpretor
software should be free software.

4. Data sharing
Everybody can choose to select sharing terms for personal data.
Everybody should be able to federate and backup personal data, at cost
on request.
Richard Stallman
2013-02-02 13:06:44 UTC
Permalink
A social network is for people, not for companies.
I think we should not try to address the issue of personal
data maintained by companies. That is a separate issue
and we can leave it to others.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Richard Stallman
2013-01-21 20:01:24 UTC
Permalink
It needs to start by stating the range of situations or cases
that it applies to.

The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to
the person who created it.

Please don't use "belongs to". It has the same problem as "owmed".

2. Know where the data is stored
Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.

"On which server" may be too much to ask.

Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to
a different provider, server or their own machine at any time
without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to
have the personal server for the personal data in the long term.

To migrate data from X to Y consists of
1. Extracting a copy from X.
2. Entering it in Y.
3. Deleting it from X.

Whether you can enter it in Y is a matter between you and Y.
So the two rights you should have are:

1. To extract your data from X when you wish.
1. To delete your data from X when you wish.

4. Control access

Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has
access to their personal data to see or modify it.

If you have published some data, you won't be able to control who can make
copies. So this needs some conditions.

5. Choose the conditions

If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user
selects the sharing license and conditions.

1. "Share" is strange usage in this context. Say "let others access".

2. This rule has two very bad consequences:

a. If "personal data" is a program, it implies the author
should be allowe to make it nonfree. We can't endorse that!

b. If the person can choose _any_ conditions, he can choose
conditions that exploit him. Lots of services demand users agree
to unfair conditions. For instance, Facebook demands users agree
that Facebook can use their photos in ads.

So this needs to be changed a lot.

8. Server software transparency

Server software should be free software so that the source code of
the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
specified.

There is a misunderstanding here. If the program is free software,
that does not imply you can get a copy of it.

Thus, if the goal is to make sure you can get a copy of it,
we need to require more. For instance, "should be free software and
its code should be published".

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Frank Karlitschek
2013-02-01 09:07:07 UTC
Permalink
On 21.01.2013, at 21:01, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> It needs to start by stating the range of situations or cases
> that it applies to.
>
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to
> the person who created it.
>
> Please don't use "belongs to". It has the same problem as "owmed".

O.K. Sorry.
What word would you suggest here?
The idea is that this is the stuff that I type into my computer before I consciously decide to release it under a specific license or share it with someone. It should be clear that the administrator of my machine or the administrator or operator of the server where I store my files has zero right on my files even if physical access is possible. This is a problem with current cloud services.


>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what laws apply.
>
> "On which server" may be too much to ask.

True. Let's leave the server out.

>
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to
> a different provider, server or their own machine at any time
> without being locked in to a specific vendor. It is recommended to
> have the personal server for the personal data in the long term.
>
> To migrate data from X to Y consists of
> 1. Extracting a copy from X.
> 2. Entering it in Y.
> 3. Deleting it from X.
>
> Whether you can enter it in Y is a matter between you and Y.
> So the two rights you should have are:
>
> 1. To extract your data from X when you wish.
> 1. To delete your data from X when you wish.

Perfect! :-)


>
> 4. Control access
>
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has
> access to their personal data to see or modify it.
>
> If you have published some data, you won't be able to control who can make
> copies. So this needs some conditions.

That's true. What would you suggest?


>
> 5. Choose the conditions
>
> If someone chooses to share their personal data, then the user
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 1. "Share" is strange usage in this context. Say "let others access".


Great.

>
> 2. This rule has two very bad consequences:
>
> a. If "personal data" is a program, it implies the author
> should be allowe to make it nonfree. We can't endorse that!

That's true. Should we make it clear that this is not about programs? Perhaps we can add a sentence.

>
> b. If the person can choose _any_ conditions, he can choose
> conditions that exploit him. Lots of services demand users agree
> to unfair conditions. For instance, Facebook demands users agree
> that Facebook can use their photos in ads.

That's an interesting point. It's true that a user can choose bad or stupid conditions. (Like many on Facebook do.)
But what would be the alternative? We can't force conditions on the users to protect them from themselfs. I think it is freedom that the users can decide for themselves even if stupid people do stupid things.



> So this needs to be changed a lot.


Do you have a suggestion? :-)

>
> 8. Server software transparency
>
> Server software should be free software so that the source code of
> the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
> specified.
>
> There is a misunderstanding here. If the program is free software,
> that does not imply you can get a copy of it.
>
> Thus, if the goal is to make sure you can get a copy of it,
> we need to require more. For instance, "should be free software and
> its code should be published".

Perfect. I forgot that aspect because I always have AGPL in mind here.


Thanks a lot for the great feedback.


Cheers
Frank



>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
Richard Stallman
2013-02-01 17:10:23 UTC
Permalink
The idea is that this is the stuff that I type into my computer
before I consciously decide to release it under a specific license
or share it with someone.

I think it is a mistake to focus on whether you "typed it into your
computer" or not. Who wrote it -- if anyone -- is irrelevant to
privacy concerns. What's relevant is that the system got that data
from you.

I suggest something like this.

If you place data in a storage facility, or it gets data from you,
you should control access to that data.

I don't have time for the other questions now -- I have to leave
that to others to suggest answers to.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Hugo Roy
2013-02-17 12:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Le vendredi 01 février 2013 à 10:07 +0100, Frank Karlitschek a écrit :
> >
> > b. If the person can choose _any_ conditions, he can choose
> > conditions that exploit him. Lots of services demand users
> agree
> > to unfair conditions. For instance, Facebook demands users
> agree
> > that Facebook can use their photos in ads.
>
> That's an interesting point. It's true that a user can choose bad or
> stupid conditions. (Like many on Facebook do.)
> But what would be the alternative? We can't force conditions on the
> users to protect them from themselfs. I think it is freedom that the
> users can decide for themselves even if stupid people do stupid
> things.
>
>

The user data manifesto is not about
copyright, etc. We all agree copyright in its current state is
alienating and that free software is good. This sentence does not
contradict that and does not make an apology for someone choosing
to distribute proprietary software. But I think that would be a
mistake to have that argument here, it is not the goal. This
document does not focus on the behaviour of the user, it tries to
give more freedom and rights to the user by giving responsibility
and obligations to the service provider. So let's not miss the
goal and focus on that, instead of also trying to address
different issues.
--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Frank Karlitschek
2013-02-18 15:53:14 UTC
Permalink
On 17.02.2013, at 07:19, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Le vendredi 01 février 2013 à 10:07 +0100, Frank Karlitschek a écrit :
>>>
>>> b. If the person can choose _any_ conditions, he can choose
>>> conditions that exploit him. Lots of services demand users
>> agree
>>> to unfair conditions. For instance, Facebook demands users
>> agree
>>> that Facebook can use their photos in ads.
>>
>> That's an interesting point. It's true that a user can choose bad or
>> stupid conditions. (Like many on Facebook do.)
>> But what would be the alternative? We can't force conditions on the
>> users to protect them from themselfs. I think it is freedom that the
>> users can decide for themselves even if stupid people do stupid
>> things.
>>
>>
>
> The user data manifesto is not about
> copyright, etc. We all agree copyright in its current state is
> alienating and that free software is good. This sentence does not
> contradict that and does not make an apology for someone choosing
> to distribute proprietary software. But I think that would be a
> mistake to have that argument here, it is not the goal. This
> document does not focus on the behaviour of the user, it tries to
> give more freedom and rights to the user by giving responsibility
> and obligations to the service provider. So let's not miss the
> goal and focus on that, instead of also trying to address
> different issues.

I agree with Hugo here.


Frank
Hugo Roy
2013-02-17 11:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Le lundi 21 janvier 2013 à 15:01 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> To migrate data from X to Y consists of
> 1. Extracting a copy from X.
> 2. Entering it in Y.
> 3. Deleting it from X.
>
> Whether you can enter it in Y is a matter between you and Y.

But if the extracted copy from X is a big data dump, it can be very hard
to enter it in Y. Think of a blog provider (e.g., Posterous). All the
data entered was "just text." After using it for years, unless they
extract your data in a correct, interoperable format (e.g. RSS) then you
can't really enter it in Y again.

So maybe we should change the paragraph. I think the right to migrate
might be too much to ask from a provider. But we should ask them to
provide us with a copy of our data in an interoperable format.
--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Richard Stallman
2013-02-17 23:23:31 UTC
Permalink
> Whether you can enter it in Y is a matter between you and Y.

But if the extracted copy from X is a big data dump, it can be very hard
to enter it in Y.

Yes, it may be difficulty, but what I said is still true:

> Whether you can enter it in Y is a matter between you and Y.

If there is a difficulty, it is Y's fault. It's not X's fault.

So maybe we should change the paragraph. I think the right to migrate
might be too much to ask from a provider. But we should ask them to
provide us with a copy of our data in an interoperable format.

Yes. Site X should make it easy to get the data out in a useful way.
And site Y should make it easy to put data in, in a useful way.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Richard Stallman
2013-01-21 20:02:40 UTC
Permalink
It is recommended users pool their money to buy hardware together and
have real co-ownership in a shared server. A Terms of Operation for
this joint ownership would have these constraints:

A.) Product is the owner's reward. This means the purpose of the
property is to receive the outputs of that production - which would be
storage and computing power in this case. This allows us to avoid
buying or selling the product since we own it already - as a
side-effect of our co-owning the inputs.

B.) Profit is the payer's investment. This means if the group allows
non-owners to use the server, those latecomers will gain co-ownership
in the growth of that facility when paying more than the real costs of
production.

This writing is very hard to understand and very abstract.
I don't know what it means in concrete terms, so I have to reject it.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Patrick Anderson
2013-01-21 17:10:29 UTC
Permalink
I would add of this to #3 (the Terms of Operation may need to be a
separate document):

It is recommended users pool their money to buy hardware together and
have real co-ownership in a shared server. A Terms of Operation for
this joint ownership would have these constraints:

A.) Product is the owner's reward. This means the purpose of the
property is to receive the outputs of that production - which would be
storage and computing power in this case. This allows us to avoid
buying or selling the product since we own it already - as a
side-effect of our co-owning the inputs.

B.) Profit is the payer's investment. This means if the group allows
non-owners to use the server, those latecomers will gain co-ownership
in the growth of that facility when paying more than the real costs of
production.

C.) Promise-to-work is a type of investment. This means the people
who install and maintain the equipment gain co-ownership when they
commit to do that work. This allows us to avoid paying wages in the
traditional sense but still compensate workers.

D.) Any subgroup my secede for any purpose. This means when there is
a conflict of interests, the Tyranny of the Majority is avoided by
splitting the facility and allowing each subgroup to retain their
co-ownership in that new, smaller group.
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-01-29 22:45:49 UTC
Permalink
On 01/21/2013 02:10 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
> I would add of this to #3 (the Terms of Operation may need to be a
> separate document):
>
> It is recommended users pool their money to buy hardware together and
> have real co-ownership in a shared server. A Terms of Operation for
> this joint ownership would have these constraints:
>
> [snip]
>
> B.) Profit is the payer's investment. This means if the group allows
> non-owners to use the server, those latecomers will gain co-ownership
> in the growth of that facility when paying more than the real costs of
> production.
>
*** Since I watched the presentation of Uwe Luebermann at EHSM 2012 [1],
I thought about GNU/business. There's a GNUbiz.net but it seems stale.
That kind of ideas could be discussed to create a site for consumers and
for entrepreneurs.

The ideas you mention, Patrick, could develop as a set of guides to
consumer electronics defense, buying cooperatives, and a network of
consumer defense organisms on electronic devices and free software.

For entrepreneurs, we can collect business models from the field, and
promote integral, cooperative business models like that of Premium Cola.
A vertical integration of the supply chain in the negotiation of price,
controlled growth, and decentralization of operations to rely less on
transports.

Regards,

==
hk

[1] http://www.premium-cola.de/betriebssystem
Hugo Roy
2013-02-17 12:16:52 UTC
Permalink
I think we should change the terminology to avoid confusion. This isn't
necessarily about "personal data" but about "user data" as the manifesto
title suggests. (in most occurrences of the text, it simply menas to
write "their data")

Here are my suggestions attached


--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Hugo Roy
2013-03-01 08:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Le dimanche 17 février 2013 à 13:16 +0100, Hugo Roy a écrit :
> I think we should change the terminology to avoid confusion. This isn't
> necessarily about "personal data" but about "user data" as the manifesto
> title suggests. (in most occurrences of the text, it simply menas to
> write "their data")
>
> Here are my suggestions attached
>
>

Hi,

Any comment on these suggestions?
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/consensus/2013-02/txtZ5VLz15Cr2.txt

I was reading it again quickly now. And I have come to the conclusion
that the manifesto's format should be changed. I think we only need 3 or
4 main points; all the rest should be explained to give details on the
point, from both the technical and rights standpoints (people on the
list made good suggestions from the technical side, maybe it's time to
merge them…)

I am looking forward to your thoughts on that

Best,
--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Melvin Carvalho
2013-03-01 09:28:02 UTC
Permalink
On 1 March 2013 09:39, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Le dimanche 17 février 2013 à 13:16 +0100, Hugo Roy a écrit :
> > I think we should change the terminology to avoid confusion. This isn't
> > necessarily about "personal data" but about "user data" as the manifesto
> > title suggests. (in most occurrences of the text, it simply menas to
> > write "their data")
> >
> > Here are my suggestions attached
> >
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> Any comment on these suggestions?
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/consensus/2013-02/txtZ5VLz15Cr2.txt
>

(1) and (4) are not 100% the same

To my mind (1) talks about read access, and (4) talks about write access
(modify).

I think you need both, because data becomes less useful when you are
restricted from changing some or all of it.


>
> I was reading it again quickly now. And I have come to the conclusion
> that the manifesto's format should be changed. I think we only need 3 or
> 4 main points; all the rest should be explained to give details on the
> point, from both the technical and rights standpoints (people on the
> list made good suggestions from the technical side, maybe it's time to
> merge them…)
>
> I am looking forward to your thoughts on that
>
> Best,
> --
> Hugo Roy
> FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
> FSFE French Team Coordinator
> Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
>
>
>
Hugo Roy
2013-03-01 09:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Le vendredi 01 mars 2013 à 10:28 +0100, Melvin Carvalho a écrit :
> (1) and (4) are not 100% the same
>
> To my mind (1) talks about read access, and (4) talks about write
> access (modify).

I think they are entirely redundant if you also consider point 5 (which
is about permissions on that content, that includes allowing
modifications or not)
--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Hugo Roy
2013-03-01 09:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Le vendredi 01 mars 2013 à 10:32 +0100, Hugo Roy a écrit :
> Le vendredi 01 mars 2013 à 10:28 +0100, Melvin Carvalho a écrit :
> > (1) and (4) are not 100% the same
> >
> > To my mind (1) talks about read access, and (4) talks about write
> > access (modify).
>
> I think they are entirely redundant if you also consider point 5 (which
> is about permissions on that content, that includes allowing
> modifications or not)

So what about ditching 4 and 5 and make 1:


> 1. Control of user data
>
> The data that someone stores should be under control of this
> person. Everybody should be able to decide whom to grant
> direct access to their data.
>

The data that someone stores should be under control of this person.
Everybody should be able to decide whom to grant direct access and
permissions to their data.


--
Hugo Roy
FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator
FSFE French Team Coordinator
Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-03-02 03:06:00 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/2013 05:39 AM, Hugo Roy wrote:
>
> Any comment on these suggestions?
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/consensus/2013-02/txtZ5VLz15Cr2.txt
>
*** Hello Hugo,

I think you're right. Reducing the UDM to its core ideas, and expanding
on them would probably help making it both more consensual, and easier
to understand. It would still leave space for discussion.

About the first point on "user control of data", I still think that
"user data" is a problematic concept. Not only the contents one is
uploading forms the "data" in my opinion, but also the relations one
establishes with other people, and other people's contents. Let me give
an example: in a forum, a conversation can span years and each
contribution has the potential to make the conversation evolve in one
way or another. Yet, if some participant leaves the network, I don't
think there's any value to anyone that her contributions
disappear--leaving a hole in the conversation, potentially a big one
that would make the whole conversation unreadable, and I do doubt that
for that participant, sticking with her own contributions out of context
makes any sense either. Therefore, there's more to "user data" than just
blocks of contents: it looks to me more like a flow that creates agency
out of which the data loses value.

That said, I believe that this point should encompass access and
availability as well (as in: export in a format suitable for importing
elsewhere, that is covered by 3.)

Point 8. Server Software Transparency might be extended to client
software as well. As in UnHosted apps, the distinction between server
and client software is blurring, and with the expansion of
Javascript-based social software (e.g., NodeJS), the same code is
supposed to run on both sides, leaving the data flowing in-between.
Truth is, unless your business model is about surveillance, there's no
technical reason why private messages would ever need to appear to the
service provider at all.

But this manifesto being addressed to users of existing social software
platforms, it makes sense to mention that messages exchanged over the
Internet between individuals, and between members of the same non-public
group, should benefit from the same rights as offline exchange by means
of the postal service, that is: inviolability of correspondence.

Re-reading the original points, it appears to me that the whole
manifesto assumes a defensive position facing an invasive state of
affairs on the part of service providers. Indeed, "social networking
companies" assume that anything you submit to them is their property,
and they have the right to use it as they wish. In the same way the
computer industry assumes failure as part of the business (e.g., bugs),
in a manner unknown to any other industry, it now assumes that, on the
pretext we're using their machines, our correspondence can be violated
with impunity and worse, that it can be used for statistical analysis to
build a probabilist model of any user, for reasons of marketing,
surveillance, etc.

What we need instead, is to denounce that practice, and stand for
extending the rights of correspondence to the Internet, so as to protect
ourselves from the prying eyes of any entity that is potentially using
"our data" for their own interests. Free software is one way of
guaranteeing that the code we're using is indeed doing what it's made
for, and no hidden spyware feature is included. That does not prevent
any service from running their own proprietary analysis software on top
of it, given the fact that they can, but it would at least forbid them
from running spyware on our own devices without our express consent.

That brings me to another point: that remote control of third parties on
devices we have purchased should not be possible at all. That Amazon can
wipe out legally purchased books from your electronic-book-reader is
outrageous; that any company would be able to make an inventory of
what's on your device with impunity is outrageous.

Then, I would make the first point about the nature of online
communications: communication on the Internet is private, unless it's
explicitly made available to the public--which is in accordance to the
principle of network neutrality. Therefore, the rule of inviolability of
correspondence applies on the Internet, and in particular in the context
of social networking services. It is not enough that it is technically
possible to violate one's communications for it to be either legal or
ethical. It is indeed technically possible to wipe out an entire
population by means of artillery or poisoning; however none of it is
legal, nor ethical.

It seems to me that living in a "temporary" exception to the rules since
2001, under the pretext of terrorism, should not make us forget about
the exceptional nature of that fact. The law did not cease to be when
belligerent powers took over civil life. We're looking at things on our
heads if we think it's normal that companies can benefit from anything
we do or say online, on the pretext we're using their service. It is
indeed the fact, for those hundreds of millions of people who are under
the spell of Facebook and friends, but it doesn't make it more
exceptional. Next time you write a love letter, try and think about how
you would feel if anyone on the way to delivery would read it.

==
hk
Hugo Roy
2013-04-17 11:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Hellekin,

I think you raise valid points. I would welcome your edits on the
document itself (attached, a new version).

I also versionned the doc with git and posted it at
https://github.com/hugoroy/user-data-manifesto

Best,
Hugo

--
Hugo Roy, Free Software Foundation Europe
FSFE Legal Team + Deputy Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/legal
FSFE French Team + Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/fr

Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Hugo Roy
2013-04-17 11:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Of course, I forgot the attachment!

Le mer. 17/04/13, 13:30, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org>:
> Hi Hellekin,
>
> I think you raise valid points. I would welcome your edits on the
> document itself (attached, a new version).
>
> I also versionned the doc with git and posted it at
> https://github.com/hugoroy/user-data-manifesto
>
> Best,
> Hugo
>
> --
> Hugo Roy, Free Software Foundation Europe
> FSFE Legal Team + Deputy Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/legal
> FSFE French Team + Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/fr
>
> Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support

--
Hugo Roy, Free Software Foundation Europe
FSFE Legal Team + Deputy Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/legal
FSFE French Team + Coordinator, www.fsfe.org/fr

Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-08 10:47:08 UTC
Permalink
On 06.01.2013, at 13:40, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Le samedi 05 janvier 2013 à 21:18 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
>> That statement is not clear. What does it mean?
>> Are you talking about that person, or his manifesto?
>>
>> GNU consensus cannot support that manifesto in its current form,
>> because it conflicts with ideas of the GNU Project.
>
> To me, it is pretty clear that we welcome Frank in the discussion.
> Frank's initiative does not conflict with ideas of the GNU project, it
> is about laying down a set of rights related to users of social
> networks/"cloud" services. I do not see a conflict in that goal with the
> GNU project that aims at liberating computer users, quite the contrary.

Thank you. :-)

> Now, I also share your concern with some of the words. This is why I did
> not sign the manifesto as an individual either. I do not believe for
> instance that anything created by a person "belongs" to that person.
> Rather, it depends very much on your definitions of "belonging" and
> "owning".

Yes. Let's make a v2.0 with improved wording. I'm not a native speaker
and not a lawyer so I'm sure there is a lot to improve.


> I guess the confusion comes from the philosophy that "people own
> themselves" which is actually another way of saying that a person is a
> free self. If you're free, you can think for yourself and do things with
> your body, so you "own" your body and you "own" things you make with
> your hands. But I do think that the formulation is too problematic,
> especially because "own" often goes hand in hand with property. And if
> we talk about ideas, then it is nonsense, even if that "idea" is
> formulated in data.

Yes.
The original motivation behind this idea was that in the "old" days everybody had exactly one computer with one hard-disk. Everything that I type into this computer is stored on the hard-disk and is considered private first. Examples are notes, draft emails, photos and all kind of documents. It's an conscious decision to share some of the stuff with others. Like publishing a blog post, sending a email, uploading a photo on a website and so on. This is all fine.

The challenge nowadays is that people have more than one computer. Like a work computer, a home notebook, a tables, a phone, a coffee machine with internet connection and so on. So it is convenient to people to have their stuff somewhere on the internet to sync it and access it from all their devices. But it is bad if the administrator of this internet services decides to access and copy and distribute the information without the permission of the user. The default has to be private. Just as my personal hard disk is mine and shouldn't be public by default.
This is what I meant with the word "I own the data that I create until I decide to share it if someone."

Perhaps "own" is the wrong word here.


> I think the crucial point should not be about "owning" but really about
> privacy/publicity.

Thats a good idea.

> The act of publishing something is very important. People should not
> publish things without thinking through what that means. For instance,
> we are responsible for things we say (legally responsible, with libel
> law; or even socially responsible, with our reputation). But worse,
> people should not be forced into publishing things. I see the subsequent
> changes of Facebook's privacy policy and designs, with their
> opt-in/opt-out changes, as a tendency towards forcing people to share
> "stuff". This is wrong. Of course, that problem goes away if people have
> their own server and decide for themselves (then we only need to take
> care of the software and interface designs).

Yes.

> But until that architecture is there and working for everybody, I
> definitely see a need for initiatives such as this manifesto: to help
> bring people to websites which adhere to safeguarding these rights. That
> can also be legally enforced in their Terms of service; so that it is
> not only a promise but also a legal contract.

Exatly.


> So I definitely think we should improve this manifesto and come up with
> a better definition of the basic rights that every user should have on
> these websites, and also a set of practical requirements that help
> safeguarding these rights.

Yes. Absolutely. I would love to improve it with the help of the people here on the mailinglist.

And it would be great to make this a GNU/FSF initiative


Frank



> --
> Hugo Roy
> French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
> Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
> https://www.fsfe.org/support
>
hellekin (GNU Consensus)
2013-02-09 00:13:55 UTC
Permalink
On 01/08/2013 07:47 AM, Frank Karlitschek wrote:
> The original motivation behind this idea was that in the "old" days everybody had exactly one computer with one hard-disk. Everything that I type into this computer is stored on the hard-disk and is considered private first. Examples are notes, draft emails, photos and all kind of documents. It's an conscious decision to share some of the stuff with others. Like publishing a blog post, sending a email, uploading a photo on a website and so on. This is all fine.
>
> The challenge nowadays is that people have more than one computer. Like a work computer, a home notebook, a tables, a phone, a coffee machine with internet connection and so on. So it is convenient to people to have their stuff somewhere on the internet to sync it and access it from all their devices. But it is bad if the administrator of this internet services decides to access and copy and distribute the information without the permission of the user. The default has to be private. Just as my personal hard disk is mine and shouldn't be public by default.
> This is what I meant with the word "I own the data that I create until I decide to share it if someone."
>
*** Can we get inspiration from the Franklin Street Statement[1]? Maybe
we should invite its signatories to participate in the discussion.

The statement (2008-07-14) says:

*Franklin Street Statement on Freedom and Network Services*

The current generation of network services or Software as a Service can
provide advantages over traditional, locally installed software in ease
of deployment, collaboration, and data aggregation. Many users have
begun to rely on such services in preference to software provisioned by
themselves or their organizations. This move toward centralization has
powerful effects on software freedom and user autonomy.

On March 16, 2008, a workgroup convened at the Free Software Foundation
to discuss issues of freedom for users given the rise of network
services. We considered a number of issues, among them what impacts
these services have on user freedom, and how implementers of network
services can help or harm users. We believe this will be an ongoing
conversation, potentially spanning many years. Our hope is that free
software and open source communities will embrace and adopt these values
when thinking about user freedom and network services. We hope to work
with organizations including the FSF to provide moral and technical
leadership on this issue.

We consider network services that are Free Software and which share Free
Data as a good starting-point for ensuring users’ freedom. Although we
have not yet formally defined what might constitute a ‘Free Service’, we
do have suggestions that developers, service providers, and users should
consider:

Developers of network service software are encouraged to:

- Use the GNU Affero GPL, a license designed specifically for network
service software, to ensure that users of services have the ability to
examine the source or implement their own service.
- Develop freely-licensed alternatives to existing popular but
non-Free network services.
- Develop software that can replace centralized services and data
storage with distributed software and data deployment, giving control
back to users.

Service providers are encouraged to:

- Choose Free Software for their service.
- Release customizations to their software under a Free Software license.
- Make data and works of authorship available to their service’s users
under legal terms and in formats that enable the users to move and use
their data outside of the service. This means:
- Users should control their private data.
- Data available to all users of the service should be available
under terms approved for Free Cultural Works or Open Knowledge.

Users are encouraged to:

- Consider carefully whether to use software on someone else’s
computer at all. Where it is possible, they should use Free Software
equivalents that run on their own computer. Services may have
substantial benefits, but they represent a loss of control for users and
introduce several problems of freedom.
- When deciding whether to use a network service, look for services
that follow the guidelines listed above, so that, when necessary, they
still have the freedom to modify or replicate the service without losing
their own data.

==
hk

[1] http://autonomo.us/2008/07/14/franklin-street-statement/
flawer
2013-01-08 13:47:46 UTC
Permalink
> GNU consensus cannot support that manifesto in its current form,
> because it conflicts with ideas of the GNU Project.

yes, the text is quite sympathic, but needs more consitency.

i'd love to improve this table for example:

http://wiki.socialswarm.net/Software


my dump, for now:

ownership serve us for protecting the freedom(sharing) we choose. hk, i
see your point in ownership making it rival based by default
and so we could look for other phrasings[0]. if we get to specify a lot
the rights and duties, no need for ownership anywhere probably. points:

right to delete everything

right to delete everything in one click (with fsn security meassures
for freazing it for a time before the final delete)

right to download a copy of everything you uploaded

rigth to download a copy of everything you uploaded, at cost on request

rigth to download a copy of everything you uploaded, at a aproximated
specified cost on request

the fsn has to offer database dumps

the fsn has to offer database dumps (of content allowed to be on some
free license) [1]

right to encrypt

right to encrypt everything

right to ssl browsing and stronger encrypting than sha, md5, etc
everything

right to basic permissions (private, logged, public) [2] [3]

right to custom permisions (i make my own visibility group)


If these parameters are not required to be a recommend/compliant with
the fsn principles/minimums,
they could be anyway used for providing a qualification number of the
fsn, which is a flexible and useful enough thing.

[0] http://sharewiki.org/en/Shareful_Invitation is a life project for
me. we are not using owner at the text, instead we use mediation, use,
sharefulling and sharefuller and etc.
Operator, contact (from lorea exprience) are also usable terms.
that SI is a 'license' appliable to things (live cds containing the
gnewsense, etc), to declare the property (ownership / useship rights)
invited to be haven by all people by default.

We have also developed a
http://sharewiki.org/en/Freed_Shareful_Invitation where 'owner' promises
/ vows to won't use their powers
while nobody would be able to own it at the same time, deliberately
risking difamation otherwise.
This freed / commons point is also lawfully risking owner to be even
sued by "abandoning, losing or mislaying" the thing by using that
clause. but it is interesting enough to be specified.

Apart of those, we could think further standards about the giving
property rigths of the fsn by uploaded and quality of the uploaded
content to the uploader
but that's probably too much. This, for me, for now, introduces the
[1] and the [3] notes

[1] refering to the freedomdefined.org standard for contents?

[2] right to different authentication registrations?

[3] the fsn should have 'public' as default for their publishing, so we
promote accesibility, we are focusing in share,
be easy for the future archeologists. You'll have to click if you wanna
be less sharer,
if you are already gonna 'somehow' own/control your info[4], you should
publishing for all for allowing others easierly evolving
with your new creation, which is not completely and lonely magickly
yours (instead of what copyright says for example)
cos you were based in other previous creations for doing that.

[4] information is as plain as data, but a bit better for
differentiating the user data from "the code of the program". Content is
even better cos the code is the container.
creations, works (as in the gpl), could be also. but i am not
uncomfortable with data either. perhaps looking at merriam would solve
it.. :-)
Richard Stallman
2013-01-07 02:20:33 UTC
Permalink
I'm not a native speaker so sorry I I choose the wrong words. What words do you suggest?

I suggest talking about which _actions_ should be under who's control.

Sure. This documents is targeting every data that is not a program. I think freedom in programs are perfectly covered by the FSF principals and the GNU licenses.
This is about holiday pictures, microblogging messages, blog posts, personal documents, emails and so on.

Some of these works should be free/libre too. For instance, if they
are educational resources.

However, if you don't use the word "own", and instead talk about
access to the data, this issue goes away. It is not a real
substantive issue, just a spurious issue of language.

>> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
>> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.

Yes. It would be the perfect solution if every user would have a
personal server. But in the midterm this is not realistic so
people store their data on server that are owned and run by other
people. And this is not necessary a problem if the principals of
this document are respected. Data is encrypted, can be migrated,
...

We need to focus on the long term! To ask for less, because in the
short term we can only get less, is to risk making a temporary
compromise permanent.

Storing data on servers run by someone else is a bad idea! We should
teach people to worry when they do this. The company that gets the
data may store it in a server in the US and the NSA will copy all the
data on its way to and from the US.

It's not so bad, if the user encrypts the data before uploading it
and the server has no access to unencrypted mail. But we need
to talk about this as a compromise.

>> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.

Yes. You are right. This is impossible to achieve. The idea is
that this is a principal where we should aim for but propbalby
can't be reached. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I understand. I suggest saying it differently; perhaps
"Protect the data from loss".

>> 8. Server software transparency
>> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
>> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
>> specified.
>>
>> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
>> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
>> disagree with our ethical ideals.

I'm sorry. My mistake. I will change this to free software.

Thanks. However, there is an issue of substance here too.

If the server does the users' own computing, that is SaaS,
and it always tramples the user's freedom as explained in
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html.

Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own computing_
then it isn't SaaS.

Do you like the general direction of this document?

Not yet, but with changes maybe I would.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Hugo Roy
2013-01-07 06:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Le dimanche 06 janvier 2013 à 21:20 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own
> computing_ then it isn't SaaS.

I'm sorry. I thought we should not use the word "own" ;-)

To be more serious: That's exactly a problem we need to define. What's
acceptable there and what's not. What makes wikipedia not your own
computing? What makes social networks not your own computing? etc

But we have to make a choice. You call it compromise, I might call it
transition or progress. The fact is, we do not offer the free software
solution to people who want to engage in social networks on the web
right now. For this, people use proprietary and centralised services
that trade both their freedom and their rights. That's an urgent issue
to fix, and I think the best way to tackle it right now is to have
competing, distributed or decentralised free software that enable people
to get more control over their data.

Yes, that means not everyone is going to run their own server. Some
people are going to do that for them. But that is already a big, big
step in the right direction, especially if we get consensus between them
on what should be the set of rights users will have, and what technical
requirements they have in terms of cryptography etc. Which is what we
are trying to do here, if I understood correctly.

--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
https://www.fsfe.org/support
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-08 11:21:43 UTC
Permalink
On 07.01.2013, at 07:53, Hugo Roy <***@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Le dimanche 06 janvier 2013 à 21:20 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
>> Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own
>> computing_ then it isn't SaaS.
>
> I'm sorry. I thought we should not use the word "own" ;-)
>
> To be more serious: That's exactly a problem we need to define. What's
> acceptable there and what's not. What makes wikipedia not your own
> computing? What makes social networks not your own computing? etc
>
> But we have to make a choice. You call it compromise, I might call it
> transition or progress. The fact is, we do not offer the free software
> solution to people who want to engage in social networks on the web
> right now. For this, people use proprietary and centralised services
> that trade both their freedom and their rights. That's an urgent issue
> to fix, and I think the best way to tackle it right now is to have
> competing, distributed or decentralised free software that enable people
> to get more control over their data.
>
> Yes, that means not everyone is going to run their own server. Some
> people are going to do that for them. But that is already a big, big
> step in the right direction, especially if we get consensus between them
> on what should be the set of rights users will have, and what technical
> requirements they have in terms of cryptography etc. Which is what we
> are trying to do here, if I understood correctly.

Yes. You verbalized my thoughts perfectly :-)

Frank


> --
> Hugo Roy
> French Coordinator, FSFE chat: ***@jabber.fsfe.org
> Support the FSFE, sign up ↓ mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
> https://www.fsfe.org/support
>
Frank Karlitschek
2013-01-08 11:11:27 UTC
Permalink
On 07.01.2013, at 03:20, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> I'm not a native speaker so sorry I I choose the wrong words. What words do you suggest?
>
> I suggest talking about which _actions_ should be under who's control.

Good idea.


> Sure. This documents is targeting every data that is not a program. I think freedom in programs are perfectly covered by the FSF principals and the GNU licenses.
> This is about holiday pictures, microblogging messages, blog posts, personal documents, emails and so on.
>
> Some of these works should be free/libre too. For instance, if they
> are educational resources.
>
> However, if you don't use the word "own", and instead talk about
> access to the data, this issue goes away. It is not a real
> substantive issue, just a spurious issue of language.

O.K. Thanks for the help.


>
>>> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
>>> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.
>
> Yes. It would be the perfect solution if every user would have a
> personal server. But in the midterm this is not realistic so
> people store their data on server that are owned and run by other
> people. And this is not necessary a problem if the principals of
> this document are respected. Data is encrypted, can be migrated,
> ...
>
> We need to focus on the long term! To ask for less, because in the
> short term we can only get less, is to risk making a temporary
> compromise permanent.
>
> Storing data on servers run by someone else is a bad idea! We should
> teach people to worry when they do this. The company that gets the
> data may store it in a server in the US and the NSA will copy all the
> data on its way to and from the US.
>
> It's not so bad, if the user encrypts the data before uploading it
> and the server has no access to unencrypted mail. But we need
> to talk about this as a compromise.

Yes. We could add that it's the the preferred way to have an own server.


>
>>> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.
>
> Yes. You are right. This is impossible to achieve. The idea is
> that this is a principal where we should aim for but propbalby
> can't be reached. Do you know what I mean?
>
> Yes, I understand. I suggest saying it differently; perhaps
> "Protect the data from loss".

Great. Thanks


>
>>> 8. Server software transparency
>>> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
>>> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
>>> specified.
>>>
>>> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
>>> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
>>> disagree with our ethical ideals.
>
> I'm sorry. My mistake. I will change this to free software.
>
> Thanks. However, there is an issue of substance here too.
>
> If the server does the users' own computing, that is SaaS,
> and it always tramples the user's freedom as explained in
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html.
>
> Not all services are SaaS. If it doesn't do _the user's own computing_
> then it isn't SaaS.

I read you document and I see what you mean.
Should we add a paragraph that SaaS is not recommended?



> Do you like the general direction of this document?
>
> Not yet, but with changes maybe I would.

Great. Let's do it.

Thanks a lot.
Frank


>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
Richard Stallman
2013-01-01 02:05:11 UTC
Permalink
This text has a lot of problems. Several points are stated in very
broad terms that have serious problems. Hold your horses!

1. Own the data
The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
person who created it.

The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
Meanwhile, "data" is too general.

What if the data is program? This seems to say that the program
should gave an owner -- and we are against that.

2. Know where the data is stored
Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
laws apply.

3. Choose the storage location
Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
being locked in to a specific vendor.

I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.

5. Choose the conditions
If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
selects the sharing license and conditions.

"Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.

6. Invulnerability of data
Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
any other reason.

"Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.

7. Use it optimally
Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
for them.

This is a demand for perfect convenience. I suspect it is impossible;
more importantly, it is a distraction, since it is not an ethical issue.
Mere convenience issues should not be elevated to the same status
as ethical issues.

8. Server software transparency
Server software should be free and open source software so that the
source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
specified.

Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
disagree with our ethical ideals.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
☮ elf Pavlik ☮
2013-01-01 09:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Excerpts from Richard Stallman's message of 2013-01-01 02:05:11 +0000:
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.
On one side 'everyone has a server' sounds interesting but on the other side could come very unpractical. I look for similar situation to Community Supported Agriculture, where small local collectives or IT savy individuals offer services for local communities. Many of my friends, especially those who don't feel super comfortable with computers or try to use them as little as possible, would appreciate if someone else kept supporting them with maintaining their online accounts!
Melvin Carvalho
2013-01-01 15:18:34 UTC
Permalink
On 1 January 2013 03:05, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> This text has a lot of problems. Several points are stated in very
> broad terms that have serious problems. Hold your horses!
>
> 1. Own the data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
>
> The words "own" and "belong" will give people the wrong idea.
> Meanwhile, "data" is too general.
>
> What if the data is program? This seems to say that the program
> should gave an owner -- and we are against that.
>

+1

I also think there is a third area here. Proprietary protocols. These are
a form of centralization that can constrain data, and limit freedom of
thought.


>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> I guess so, but in the long term, this is aiming low. The real goal
> should be that everyone has a server and keeps her data there.
>

+1

Two of the projects on the list data.fm (developed by Tim Berners-Lee at
MIT) and owncloud aim to allow users to store their own data on their own
server. data.fm is 100% web standards compliant and owncloud supports
webdav I believe.


>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> "Owner of the data" has the same problems as in the first item.
>
> 6. Invulnerability of data
> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.
>
> "Invulnerability" is too strong. Nobody can achieve that.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
> for them.
>
> This is a demand for perfect convenience. I suspect it is impossible;
> more importantly, it is a distraction, since it is not an ethical issue.
> Mere convenience issues should not be elevated to the same status
> as ethical issues.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works
> as
> specified.
>
> Please don't use the term "open source" here. This is part of the
> free software movement. "Open source" is the slogan of people who
> disagree with our ethical ideals.
>

+1


>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
>
>
>
Richard Stallman
2013-01-02 03:55:42 UTC
Permalink
I think we should not sign that manifesto as currently written.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Richard Stallman
2013-01-05 05:42:45 UTC
Permalink
That scenario does not require consensus,
so if that is the goal, what is the purpose
of this list and a manifesto?

The purpose of consensus is to help the various distributed
social networks programs work together. What I said

> The real goal should be that everyone
> has a server and keeps her data there.

is a matter of HOW we recommend using any distributed social network
program. I don't understand why you think that this recommendation
conflicts with developing GNU consensus.

If each of us is doing our computing in
solitary confinement, why would need to
agree on anything at all?

I can't relate that in any way to the topic we are discussing.
Is there a misunderstanding perhaps?

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
Patrick Anderson
2013-01-04 21:17:54 UTC
Permalink
> The real goal should be that everyone
> has a server and keeps her data there.

That scenario does not require consensus,
so if that is the goal, what is the purpose
of this list and a manifesto?

If each of us is doing our computing in
solitary confinement, why would need to
agree on anything at all?
Melvin Carvalho
2015-11-15 22:34:02 UTC
Permalink
On 1 January 2013 at 01:17, hellekin (GNU Consensus) <***@gnu.org>
wrote:

> http://userdatamanifesto.org/ proposes 8 points "defining basic rights
> for people to control their own data in the internet age"
>
> I'd like to reach consensus on officially supporting this manifesto:
>

Resurrecting an old thread. I've been pondering this for the last couple
of years, and I think I have worked out some basic common issues:

UDM 2.0 is a good start but it doesnt address the basic issues that we
have. ie we dont have data freedom, in a practical sense. Even those
loving free software are not always offering data freedom. Often we dont
know what it means, so let's teach people.

The general high level aim of data freedom is complete control over all
your data. I divide it into two sections:

1. Where it is stored

This is about the data being able to control where the data is stored and
perform operations on that data.

1.1 The user can choose where the data is stored

1.2 The user is free to view all their data.

1.3 The user is free to modify all their data the way they want, including
adding arbitrary new fields, deleting anything existing

1.4 The user is free to move their data, provided that they are responsible
for links to the old location


2. How the data is stored

2.1 The user is entitled to share their data, including on a global scale

2.2 The user can choose the format in which the data is stored (conforming
to common standards)

This is PARTICULARLY important. The USER decides NOT the developer.

2.3 The user is able to protect and privacy control their data, determining
exactly who sees what

2.4 The user is entitled to notify other users when updates to their data
occurs

I think this is roughly what you need. Take your own system and rate
yourself honestly on how well you do. I noticed those that signed up to
UDM 2.0 didnt always pass the tests.

Too long have we been in a world were users have 90% freedom but cant get
the last most important bit of power out of their machines. The problem
now isnt proprietary software, it's developer restrictions. Let's open our
eyes to where we are failing.

I believe we've got a great system that ready to deliver data freedom on
the web, which should be a key strategic battle ground

https://github.com/solid/solid-spec

I spoke to frank (owncloud) last week, and I think there could be the basis
of collaboration on here.

But we need much more help, to make this happen. Let's free people's data
and reclaim the internet!

>
>
> ==
> hk
>
> 1. Own the data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> 4. Control access
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
> their own data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Invulnerability of data
> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
> for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
> specified.
>
>
Frank Karlitschek
2015-11-18 02:13:31 UTC
Permalink
> On Nov 15, 2015, at 17:34, Melvin Carvalho <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1 January 2013 at 01:17, hellekin (GNU Consensus) <***@gnu.org> wrote:
> http://userdatamanifesto.org/ proposes 8 points "defining basic rights
> for people to control their own data in the internet age"
>
> I'd like to reach consensus on officially supporting this manifesto:
>
> Resurrecting an old thread. I've been pondering this for the last couple of years, and I think I have worked out some basic common issues:
>
> UDM 2.0 is a good start but it doesnt address the basic issues that we have. ie we dont have data freedom, in a practical sense. Even those loving free software are not always offering data freedom. Often we dont know what it means, so let's teach people.
>
> The general high level aim of data freedom is complete control over all your data. I divide it into two sections:
>
> 1. Where it is stored
>
> This is about the data being able to control where the data is stored and perform operations on that data.
>
> 1.1 The user can choose where the data is stored
>
> 1.2 The user is free to view all their data.
>
> 1.3 The user is free to modify all their data the way they want, including adding arbitrary new fields, deleting anything existing
>
> 1.4 The user is free to move their data, provided that they are responsible for links to the old location
>
>
> 2. How the data is stored
>
> 2.1 The user is entitled to share their data, including on a global scale
>
> 2.2 The user can choose the format in which the data is stored (conforming to common standards)
>
> This is PARTICULARLY important. The USER decides NOT the developer.
>
> 2.3 The user is able to protect and privacy control their data, determining exactly who sees what
>
> 2.4 The user is entitled to notify other users when updates to their data occurs
>

I think this makes a lot of sense. The only ‘problem’ with this draft is that it is quite complex and detailed which doesn’t make it necessarily easier for users to fully understand.
A design goal of UDM2 was to have it really simple and easy to get.


> I think this is roughly what you need. Take your own system and rate yourself honestly on how well you do. I noticed those that signed up to UDM 2.0 didnt always pass the tests.
>
> Too long have we been in a world were users have 90% freedom but cant get the last most important bit of power out of their machines. The problem now isnt proprietary software, it's developer restrictions. Let's open our eyes to where we are failing.
>
> I believe we've got a great system that ready to deliver data freedom on the web, which should be a key strategic battle ground
>
> https://github.com/solid/solid-spec

Yes. Very interesting. We at ownCloud are looking into ways to support this.

>
> I spoke to frank (owncloud) last week, and I think there could be the basis of collaboration on here.
>
> But we need much more help, to make this happen. Let's free people's data and reclaim the internet!

Absolutely! Let’s see what we can do to collaborate!


Frank


>
>
> ==
> hk
>
> 1. Own the data
> The data that someone directly or indirectly creates belongs to the
> person who created it.
>
> 2. Know where the data is stored
> Everybody should be able to know: where their personal data is
> physically stored, how long, on which server, in what country, and what
> laws apply.
>
> 3. Choose the storage location
> Everybody should always be able to migrate their personal data to a
> different provider, server or their own machine at any time without
> being locked in to a specific vendor.
>
> 4. Control access
> Everybody should be able to know, choose and control who has access to
> their own data to see or modify it.
>
> 5. Choose the conditions
> If someone chooses to share their own data, then the owner of the data
> selects the sharing license and conditions.
>
> 6. Invulnerability of data
> Everybody should be able to protect their own data against surveillance
> and to federate their own data for backups to prevent data loss or for
> any other reason.
>
> 7. Use it optimally
> Everybody should be able to access and use their own data at all times
> with any device they choose and in the most convenient and easiest way
> for them.
>
> 8. Server software transparency
> Server software should be free and open source software so that the
> source code of the software can be inspected to confirm that it works as
> specified.
>
>
Richard Stallman
2015-11-19 02:38:42 UTC
Permalink
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

"Complete control over all your data" is very abstract, and very
broad. Are we talking about the data that YOU are keeping? Or
personal data in the possesion of services you use? Or other
data about you that various systems have collected?

We should test these proposals against some specific cases to see if
what they would require would be sufficient for those cases.

Looking at the specific points, some seem to be for cases where you
use a service to store your data in, while others seem to be meant
for services you use.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
Melvin Carvalho
2015-11-21 09:39:58 UTC
Permalink
On 19 November 2015 at 03:38, Richard Stallman <***@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> "Complete control over all your data" is very abstract, and very
> broad. Are we talking about the data that YOU are keeping? Or
> personal data in the possesion of services you use? Or other
> data about you that various systems have collected?
>

Good point. That sentence wasnt as clear as it could be. What I had in
mind was "user generated content". Ideally everyone will store much of
their data on their own freedombox, but that's not a world we live in
today, wrt free software solutions. So as we transition I think it's
valuable to consider both data you store personally, and data you trust
others to store for you.


>
> We should test these proposals against some specific cases to see if
> what they would require would be sufficient for those cases.
>

Absolutely! One thing I'd like to see is more interop among free software
solutions. Interop is hard, in the same way that "communication is hard',
the reality being that we are short on resources and need to show a benefit
for prioritizing work. Id like to argue that offering data freedom is a
great way to increase the longevity of systems we build, by leveraging the
network effect.

One specific recommendation I have is to implement the mime-db project:

https://github.com/jshttp/mime-db

Github pages recently introduced this, and it works really well. It allows
users to store files in any of 3000 different formats, taken from various
standardizations efforts and user submitted formats.

The gist of is is that from an extension, the data is served with a mime
type that the user would like. This would be a major win for data freedom
imho, because now we are putting the power in the hands of users, to
create, inspect, improve and share data.

>
>
> Looking at the specific points, some seem to be for cases where you
> use a service to store your data in, while others seem to be meant
> for services you use.
>

Agree, it's an attempt to match roughly what we see today in our systems.
The point I think we are at is that we've taken the first step of allowing
users to store limited styles of data. If we can make it open ended, and
allow CRUD operations (generally we're not bad at buidling RESTful
services), and we've moved forward.

With my two further proposals of allowing access control and realtime
updates the hope is to turn data freedom into a giant declarative data base
on which a turing complete systems can be delivered on a mass scale (sorry,
buzz words!). In short, let's try and improve data freedom and watch 1000
flowers bloom!

I do appreciate some of this points are quite vague, hopefully I've given
an idea on how we can progress, and I welcome discussion to refine and
enable us, as a community, to take positive steps forward!


>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
>
>
Richard Stallman
2015-11-21 21:36:57 UTC
Permalink
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

> Good point. That sentence wasnt as clear as it could be. What I had in
> mind was "user generated content".

Do you mean, publications posted on web sites by members of the
public? I think so.

Please let's not call these publications "content"; that term
disparages them. See http://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html.

> So as we transition I think it's
> valuable to consider both data you store personally, and data you trust
> others to store for you.

Now it seems you are talking about files we keep and do NOT publish.

> > We should test these proposals against some specific cases to see if
> > what they would require would be sufficient for those cases.
> >

> Absolutely! One thing I'd like to see is more interop among free software
> solutions.

I think we are miscommunicating. We are not talking about specific
programs. We are discussing proposed ethical criteria. What I suggest
we do is test these proposed criteria against specific cases and see
whether their requirements would be ethically adequate for those cases.

I can say this much: the proper requirements for something that stores
your private files are totally different from those appropriate for
publications. A proposal to treat both of those with one set of
criteria is misguided.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
carlo von lynX
2015-11-19 09:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello Melvin!

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:34:02PM +0100, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> UDM 2.0 is a good start but it doesnt address the basic issues that we
> have. ie we dont have data freedom, in a practical sense. Even those
> loving free software are not always offering data freedom. Often we dont
> know what it means, so let's teach people.

There is a philosophical worry that has been nagging me for some months
now concerning "freedom" in the sense of democracy and constitutions.
It is neither the freedom of software nor the freedom of data. True
freedom is the ability to walk in a park at night and expect not to be
robbed or stabbed to death. It is the freedom to feel safe that others
will not harm me because it is unreasonably dangerous for them to do so.

I am afraid with ideologies like freedom of software and data we missed
the point. Both have been used against us as citizen of a digitized
world. Think of GNU/Linux enabling bulk surveillance in smartphones, or
simply empowering the Google cloud. Think of the content and social graph
of Twitter and Facebook enabling atrocious forms of destruction of our
constitutional ability to form a political opinion such as KARMA POLICE
and JTRIG. Just look at the Falklands incident of 2008 reported recently
by theintercept.

Is "free data" and "free software" a similarly wrong ideology as the
"free market" ? Giving freedom to the capital rather than the human?

I know that the GPL provides a ton of securities for the users, so I am
not specifically talking about the FSF. Just about the word "free" in
the context of manifestos and such.

Best regards, Carlo.


--
E-mail is public! Talk to me in private using encryption:
http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/LynX/
irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/lynX
https://psyced.org:34443/LynX/
Hugo Roy
2015-11-19 12:11:46 UTC
Permalink
↪ 2015-11-19 Thu 10:35, carlo von lynX <***@time.to.swarm.psyced.org>:
>
> Is "free data" and "free software" a similarly wrong ideology as the
> "free market" ? Giving freedom to the capital rather than the human?

FWIW, the user data manifesto puts the emphasis on users’ rights on
their data --- or “data rights” (which echoes with “data protection”
and “copyright”).


--
Hugo Roy – Free Software Foundation Europe https://fsfe.org/about/roy

Please use cryptography for email: see https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
Merci d’utiliser la cryptographie pour l’email : voir https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/fr/
Richard Stallman
2015-11-20 02:56:01 UTC
Permalink
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

> True
> freedom is the ability to walk in a park at night and expect not to be
> robbed or stabbed to death. It is the freedom to feel safe that others
> will not harm me because it is unreasonably dangerous for them to do so.

What you are talking about is security, not freedom.
They are fundamentally different kinds of things.

Including security in the definition of "freedom"
clouds the discussion of freedom.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
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